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 Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR

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NickOESEngineer



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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:44 am

Give me a shout if you require my services. I am the Marine Engineer at Ardlui but can come down to Cameron if quiet up the road.
I also have Merc Diagnostics gear.
Regards Nick
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anjo

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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:33 am

Go with Nicks advice and hook up the diagnostic and thrash her. Nick should be able to take a snap shot of the EFI parameters to see what is happening.

As I have mentioned before I had a similar problem on the 7.4 MPI. Would start and then stall with alarm another attempt would do the same except run for a few minutes. Give it a hand full of throttle she would just stall. Turned out to be a sticking idle control valve that does not show as a fault, but diagnostic did display position of idle control valve movement and that it was sticking when power was required. I know it can be a pain especially when electonics are concerned.

Hope you get to the bottom of the fault and highlight it on the forum of the root cause.

John
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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:51 am

Hi Campbell

Sorry to see you are still finding problems.

I'm sure your engineers will find it eventually. Sounds like there is two seperate faults here or one very strange one.

Something that will only cost time and no parts is a basic " Rule out" test and will involve tracing the ignition and start wires from the battery through every connection up to the ignition switch. Some of these will/should have been done already.

Every connection is removed and checked for corrosion and tightness, sprayed and cleaned then refitted. I would have the engine running as well prior to disconection ( Not during) and a good tug at the wiring to try and replicate the fault. Sounds basic and simple but a poor connection at a plug, fuse box ,starter ,earth point, battery, relay or switch could shut the engine down intermittantly and be a bugger to find. This is a job for two as it will mean stop start on the engine during the test so be prepared to spend some time, as I know you are , with the engineer.

Most of these items will not leave a trace for the diagnostic machine so I would do this first. Well worth an hour or two to rule this out. The worst that will happen is you improve the connections round the engine.

Just a wee thing for the engineers here. Is there a connection terminal for a constant 12V ignition feed on the rear of the starter in this engine ?.

Paul
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anjo

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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:28 pm

Hi Campbell,

Did you ever find the root cause to your fault your were having?
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SKYEDEN

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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:32 pm

anjo wrote:
Hi Campbell,

Did you ever find the root cause to your fault your were having?

Hi John

No not yet, the plan was to take her out with Neil once the weather is a bit better and thrash her arround to see if she will play up. If Neil cant find the problem assuming the fault occurs then probably onto Nick and try the same thing

I know the problem has not gone away as over the winter i have been down and ran the engine a few times well before all the freeze over and on one of the occasions while purring away for 15-20 mins she just cut out as if someone had switched of the ignition, just the same as she has done before, turned over immediately and was fine

Really just waiting for the weather to improve as in temperature wise and for the ice to be done with and hopefully Neil wont be too busy otherwise the wife will give up on this boating malarky, she is not interested in going out until fixed, it kind of spoilt our first season as we had no confidence with her and couldn't explore the loch

Cheers
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anjo

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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:51 am

Campbell when you get it all sorted please share to us all the outcome
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SKYEDEN

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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:08 pm

Oh i will dont worry and a few bottles of the bubbly stuff, lol!
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SKYEDEN

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PostSubject: Problem found and fixed   Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:45 pm

I think we have found the problem Houston

Nick (OES) arrived today with all his gear, the good news was that last week after i topped the fuel tanks up with 120 litres ready for today's testing the engine conked out, would not start, so when we tried again this morning it still would not start for Nick either, always a bonus when the intermittent fault is actually in fault

Laptop rigged up, no fault codes, fuel pressure gauge on pressure spot on, spark from coil to distributor - sweet, spark from dizzie to plugs - ????????????????

Distributor cap of next - oops all pins rather corroded ah maybe the answer, would have been checked already if i bloody owned some torx bits, its all moved on so much since the days i tinkered with my mark 2 escort cross-flow engine

Oh well scraped, cleaned and a wee rub with emery paper and it looked good as new, back on, fired first time and headed for sea trials, took her out for a bit which was cut short due to a hydraulic leak on the trim rams (F**&$@*g boats) confused , a bit windy as well today so fun on a single engine and no bow thruster getting back in the berth Very Happy

Now how bloody simple was that eh?????? No comment lol! , by Nicks experience he is 99% sure that was the problem, god i hope so, watch this space cheers
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anjo

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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:08 am

That great theat Nick has found the fault, Hydraulic oil eh. That will be on of the rams leakingat the fitting. I had the same issue on my Bayliner 2855. I got it sorted by Nick when the boat was out of the water at Ardlui a few years back. If the corrosion on the ram body is not severe Nick will use an repair fitting to sort the leak.

Could be time to have it hauled out for repair and a clean the hull as well whilst your boat is out of the water.
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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:41 am

anjo wrote:

Could be time to have it hauled out for repair and a clean the hull as well whilst your boat is out of the water.

Yip not mucking arround, coming out the water on Tuesday, new ram, u/j, exhaust, gear belows replaced, going for full anode set as well, i'll clean, prepare and re-paint leg, jet wash underside and a quick general clean/polish while out of the water plus some fluid changes - back in the water for the weekend then hopefully i'll get some hours on the engine and find that place called Ardlui, lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:54 am

Great stuff Campbell. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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thecarboss

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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:10 am

Hi Campbell

Corrosion on the dizzy cap is normal over a damp winter and would certainly cause the boat to missfire or sometimes not fire at all. A small crack in the cap can let in dampness. Can you think back to the days when you had the fault and was it damp those days ?

Did Nick give his reasoning that this would cause an intermittant fault ?

I hope that its finally sorted.

Paul
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SKYEDEN

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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:10 am

thecarboss wrote:
Hi Campbell

Corrosion on the dizzy cap is normal over a damp winter and would certainly cause the boat to missfire or sometimes not fire at all. A small crack in the cap can let in dampness. Can you think back to the days when you had the fault and was it damp those days ?

Did Nick give his reasoning that this would cause an intermittant fault ?

I hope that its finally sorted.

Paul

Hi Paul

I have to say my suspicion is that very little if any service work has been done with this boat, i suspect the build up on the dizzy cap is over the years, were talking between 1/32" to 1/64" of crap on every pin and the center bit as well enough that when i scraped with a small screwdriver it was like chipping off.
Don't think it was damp every day no

Nick never really gave reasons for it being intermittent just reckoned is was most likely this was causing the problem

I do find it weird that some days it would fire up no problem and tick away for 30 mins firing on all cylinders then to suddenly not over the last few days

I guess only time will tell, i'd like to have thrashed about the loch for a good few hours testing while Nick was there but with the weather and no hydraulics for trimming i headed back in to look at the hydraulics while having an engineer with me

I'll keep you posted
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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:36 am

Campbell,

A new ram is quite expensive can Nick not just use a repair kit that can be purchased from Crossans. Mind you if the corrosion on the ram is really extensive then I would go for both rams to be replaced.

I am assuming that you have the Bravo 3 leg which is more prone to corrosion as the Stainless steel props do not help with galvanic reaction on the leg. It took me 2 days just to remove the corrosion from the legand then followed by primer then black enamel paint. I finally went for an antifoul on the leg aswell.

To reduce the galvanic corrosion from the stainless props I added a Anode cone to the end of the prop purchased from trickett marine. Apparently Mercruiser added this to reduce corrrosion on later Bravo drive legs.
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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:43 pm

Hi John

As Nick is now on a 4-5 week wait (I have used up my slot for the engine issue) i'm getting Neil to do the work, his words were he could repair but no guarantees and as its £160 out & £160 back in i've decided for a new ram which he will guarantee. Maybe i should go for both rams, at least 1 if not both were changed a couple of seasons ago, its all a learning curve for me, an expensive one all be it

After having spent the last 2 hours reading up on all this i reckon next time i'll be doing it all myself, i'm just being lazy christ i'm a mechanical engineer to trade, lol

Yes Bravo 3, did see a bit of corrosion last May when i had her out for a survey so to be honest happy to get her out and start sanding away at the leg

Need help on finding what paints/primmers etc to use all i know is no copper or tin based paints

Also doing all the anodes so i'm assuming at the cost quoted i'll be getting the prop cone one as well

Thankfuly the weather is its usual sh** so good to get all this done now

Cheers
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anjo

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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:58 pm

Campbell,

You say the rams were replaced a couple of years back. It sounds to me that they may have just had the repair kit fitted. Rams should not fail in such a short time as it is usually the fitting at the ram that fails as the thread corrodes. It might also just be the hydraulic hose and pipe that has failed as I know a few people who have had to replace that in the past due to the pipe corroding. I used an exotic primer by Hamerite and Mercruiser Black enamel paint. Washed all the corrosion with alloy wheel cleaner and the an orbital sander and dremel to remove the worst. Followed by a further wash with alloy wheel cleaner and then prime and the paint. I believe if you go on the Bayliner owners site they have some good tips on removing corrosion.

At least you will have a datum to work from now with overhauling the leg as sometimes previous history can be misleading.

I have had to replace all the 7 drive belts on my 2 volvos KADS 32's as one snapped and history said they had been replaced a year before I purchased my Sealine, so I just replaced the lot and also serviced the engines as well and will have it lifted end of this season at Ardlui for drive legs service and hull dry out/ antifoul. Got Colin Camburn to do some of the work and he was quite reasonable.

Hope to see you on the water soon.


Last edited by anjo on Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling correction)
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PostSubject: The saga continues   Sun May 02, 2010 11:06 am

Well was out today with the family and the saga continues

Fired up, warmed up oil/water and headed out, got as far as Duck Bay, spluttered and came to a halt, tried to start, not interested, floated around for 10 mins and tried again fired once but shutdown straight away, then would not re-start

Had a look round the engine myself, checked all leads on dizzy cap for tightness, checked a couple of plug leads, pressed the ignition breaker button (well its red and shiny and looked good for pressing), poked and prodded about a little more then fired her up - sweet who needs mechanics eh

Headed up to Ross Dhu point on the plane, puttered around for a bit, headed back on the plane all the way back into the marina without as much as another missed beat

So what now dodgy leads? Some little wire in and around this area is making and breaking and pi$$ing me of, from not firing to running perfectly in a matter of minutes, was now thinking of replacing leads, could this be a faulty lead?

Can you use car leads or must they have the magic triple costing word "MARINE" printed somewhere, seems to be a difference from £20 to £60
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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Sun May 02, 2010 11:42 am

unlikely the HT leads would cause the fault as if one went you would only drop a cylinder and missfire.

Was the breaker out ? if so strip all the connections near it and clean them up and re-secure.

Of course the time you were trying things out may just have allowed the fault to hide again.

Have you ran the boat on a seperate tank yet ?

About a month ago i took my boat out for its first spin of the year and got about 400 yards from the marina when the boat spluttered to a halt. took about 5 minutes before she would fire again. I forgot to fit my new water filter, ran fine back to the berth where i changed the filter and added "dryfuel" to the tank and its been fine since.

I very rarely fill my tank and as such the condensation over the winter allows water to collect in the tank, last season i used 3 water filters and 3 dryfuel treatments.

I still think this is your problem and think you should rule it out before you move on to other stuff. I have heard of 1-2 gallons of water drained from marine tanks.
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NickOESEngineer



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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Sun May 02, 2010 11:53 pm

Hi Campbell,
Sorry to hear you still have a problem mate, I thought we had cracked the problem as the boat started and ran without trouble after refitting cap. Paul, I kind of ruled out the fuel system as campbell and his brother had just changed all the filters. He had then removed the new filter during faultfinding and there was no water etc in the filter. This would be my first port of call usually. The fuel pressure was pefect on test so anti syphon is not malfunctioning at time of test. Campbell I will have another look. I think we will substitute the fuel tank next time also but I still think this electrical. We will take for much longer sea trial next time. My apologies.
Nick
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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Mon May 03, 2010 8:35 am

Paul, I'm going to get a couple of cans of dry fuel tomorrow, not convinced but can do no harm, when I changed the filters their was no water present, been checking back over this thread my tank is plastic not alloy don't know if that makes much difference on the condensation side of things.

I have never had less than half a tank of fuel since getting the boat its usually 3/4 to full most of the time, during the winter there I had a heater on in the engine bay set at 10 degrees, in fact its still on so again how cold the tank got during the winter for condensation to occur not sure

If there is water in the fuel why is it such an intermittent fault? I would have thought this would be a permanent issue rather than intermittent!

Was down again today and again while in the engine bay she shutdown, would not start, I wiggled a few wires and then she fired up fine and purred away! I'm still thinking electric now to be honest

She is coming out tomorrow for the leg work but will be back in for the weekend so Nick pencil me in sooner rather than later mate for some more sea trials cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Mon May 03, 2010 11:06 am

Campbell,

Your engine is EFi well I think the idle control valve is sticking. This can be monitored with the diagnostic hooked up to watch idle control valve position. Can be a common problem on automotive engine engine will run ok and then stall then wait a while as the idle control valve resets and then engine will start.

Are you getting any alarms comoing in when she stalls
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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Mon May 03, 2010 12:54 pm

anjo wrote:
Campbell,

Your engine is EFi well I think the idle control valve is sticking. This can be monitored with the diagnostic hooked up to watch idle control valve position. Can be a common problem on automotive engine engine will run ok and then stall then wait a while as the idle control valve resets and then engine will start.

Are you getting any alarms comoing in when she stalls

John

No alarms at all, always as if someone has turned of the ignition key (when at idle speed)

I think this has been eliminated by a few mechanics/marine engineers as the problem, although it would be great if Nick, Colin, Neil were all throwing their ideas into the pot, your thoughts on that one as well Paul cheers

Remembering not all blips are happening at idle speeds, i can be up at 2000, 3000rpm when she splutters or misses a few beats
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PostSubject: Re: Intermitant fault with Mag 350 MPI on maxum 2700SCR   Mon May 03, 2010 2:02 pm

Campbell,

I would check all the wiring back up to the ignition switch and kill switch in case it could be a crimp that has worked loose. Failing that it may be fuel starvation assuming that no water in the fuel and the water seperator filter has been changed.

Another source may be to log onto the Bayliner owners forum orsimilar forums and ask the question to see if anybody world wide has had a similar problem and what the root cause was to rectify the problem.

It can be frustrating aas I had a similar issue with my last Bayliner except it was an 7.4 MPI which would stall and cut out when given a handfull of throttle turned out that the temp sensor and idle control valve were at fault, but were ok when diagnostics equipment was hooked up. Maybe speak to Colin Camburn as he purchased my Mercruiser diagnostic unit from me as I no longer required it as my current boat has Volvo diesels. He should see if any fault codes appear when the boat is on the move and see if the ECU is working within its parameters.

No doubt the most troublesome faults turn out to be a simple fix.
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PostSubject: Nearly there i think!!!!   Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:40 pm

Well thought i was due an update on this bloody saga as i think i'm nearly there

Last couple of times i have been out she has behaved with only the very odd blip

And i mean just a blip, was out at the weekend there got all the way to the islands when she spluttered and died took 5 minutes of playing arround with the coil ht lead and that was her sorted for the rest of the weekend

Luckily i decided to invest in a pair of 1000v insulated pliers and have now 100% confirmed when she does play up and cranks over without firing that i am not getting a spark from the ignition coil so i now reckon either the ignition coil, ignition module or the ecm, god i hope not the ecm

Gut tells me the ignition module but will probably have to invest in a coil & module @ approx £200

Eddie Crossan has a ecm i can try so probably still prudent to rule it out pitty no coil/module available yet

Nearly there i reckon now so hopefully will have put this to bed in the next few weeks, not bad eh approx 12 months to sort an intemittent fault

Mind you i now know my way round a 350 MAG MPI pretty well lol!
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PostSubject: UPDATE   Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:02 am

Update - Replaced ignition coil/module @£230, guess what not the problem, continue to prove the problem is a loss of ignition spark from coil

E Crossan now has an identical engine with cracked block that he is kindly allowing me to test ignition circuit parts 1 at a time from

Last night tried the ECM, HT lead from coil & start neutral safety switch but problem still exists, hoping to get crankshaft sensor and fuel/power relays this afternoon to try, after these i think we have tried all parts/sensors etc in the ignition circuit and then were looking at a box of matches er i mean the wiring loom next

Oh well looks like no golf for my second season either

Anyone fancy towing me there and back,lol
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